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it's my understanding that a sardonic remark is cruel and condescending, where as a sarcastic remark is a sharp taunt. am i confused?
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Mon, October 3, 2005 - 11:52 AMhmm, good question..
dictionary.reference.com/search
Synonyms: sarcastic, ironic, caustic, satirical, sardonic
These adjectives mean having or marked by a feeling of bitterness and a biting or cutting quality. Sarcastic suggests sharp taunting and ridicule that wounds: “a deserved reputation for sarcastic, acerbic and uninhibited polemics” (Burke Marshall). Ironic implies a subtler form of mockery in which an intended meaning is conveyed obliquely: “a man of eccentric charm, ironic humor, andabove allprofound literary genius” (Jonathan Kirsch). Caustic means corrosive and bitingly trenchant: “The caustic jokes... deal with such diverse matters as political assassination, talk-show hosts, medical ethics” (Frank Rich). Satirical implies exposure, especially of vice or folly, to ridicule: “on the surface a satirical look at commercial radio, but also a study of the misuse of telecommunications” (Richard Harrington). Sardonic is associated with scorn, derision, mockery, and often cynicism: “He was proud, sardonic, harsh to inferiority of every description” (Charlotte Brontë).
dictionary.reference.com/search
sardonic
adj : disdainfully or ironically humorous; scornful and mocking; "his rebellion is the bitter, sardonic laughter of all great satirists"- Frank Schoenberner; "a wry pleasure to be...reminded of all that one is missing"- Irwin Edman [syn: wry] -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Mon, October 3, 2005 - 11:53 AMso, sounds like youre about right - thats how ive always heard them.. you could have biting sarcasm, but not biting sardonicism. -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Mon, October 3, 2005 - 12:08 PMSardonic remarks are always recognized as such; true perfect sarcasm is never realized as such when used.
Perfect sarcasm is a wonderful goal to aspire to. Really! -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Mon, October 3, 2005 - 1:17 PM"Perfect sarcasm is a wonderful goal to aspire to."
You mean:
Perfect sarcasm is a wonderful goal to which to aspire.
or
Perfect sarcasm is a wonderful aspirational goal.
Couldn't resist. Sorry -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Mon, October 3, 2005 - 1:22 PMI'll forgive you this once, if only because of avatarial simularity. -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Tue, October 4, 2005 - 1:32 AMMy Oxford has this to say:
Sarcasm: "the use of bitter or wounding, esp. ironic, remarks."
Sardonic: "grimly jocular" or "(of laughter etc.) bitterly mocking or cynical".
The way I was taught, sarcasm is the simplest form of irony (a concept which deserves a whole thread to itself) in that it involves saying something but meaning the opposite e.g. "I think Britney Spears is *wonderful*."
Sadonicism, on the other hand, could be used to describe, say, the comedy of Bill Hicks. The phrase "black comedy" comes to mind.
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Tue, October 4, 2005 - 6:56 AMIf you're going to correct people's style, you might as well go all the way-- aspiration is redundant, as the word 'goal' already conveys the same meaning:
Perfect sarcasm is a wonderful goal. -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Tue, October 4, 2005 - 1:07 PMBTW, that was entirely true - I DO love this tribe. No sarcasm intended.
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Tue, October 4, 2005 - 2:15 PMI don't think "perfect sarcasm" should be anyone's goal. Sarcasm is hurtful. I think a better goal would be to eliminate sarcasm altogether. It hurts us as individuals and as a community.
Sarcasm is defined as, "A cutting, often ironic, remark intended to wound. It is a form of wit marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule." Sarcasm can be turned outward (used against another) or turned inward (used against one's Self). No matter which way you direct it, sarcasm is directed contempt. Abusive relationships are often marked by contempt and sarcasm. Personally, I really dislike sarcasm and I beat feet rather than expose myself to it.
I know, I know...sarcasm is only a form of humor. It's a tool. Okay, I get it. But if sarcasm is the only "tool" in your humor toolbox, that's a problem. Hanging out with someone who is sarcastic can be like tap dancing in a mind field. You never know when they are going to go off or why. Like landmines, the triggers of sarcasm lie hidden out of sight, usually deep within the psyche of the speaker. People who use sarcasm regularly and with malice are verbal bullies, "sarcassholes" (for those of you who embrace sarcasm) if you will.
Sarcasm is an act of passive-aggression. It is by its nature provocative. Like poking someone with a stick or waving a flag, the sarcasshole provokes with words. Failure to respond may result in even more ridicule, more sarcasm. Oddly, the mocking contempt of sarcasm can make the recipient feel alternately like you "should" respond, silly if you "didn't" respond, sorry if you "do" respond. The victim cannot win.
Yes, sarcasm can be both witty and intelligent; that's what makes it so brutal. You can bet your ass that the sarcasshole meant to hurt you with their words because sarcasm is a craft, a skill honed by the wordsmith; it rarely happens by accident. It is a tool, wielded with deliberation – like a knife or a gun. Rest assured, if you are plagued by a sarcasshole, they know what they are doing. They need you to do it. Sarcasm has to have a fall guy to even exist. If you are in the presence of a sarcasshole, you could end up the fall guy. That's just the risk. A hunter is not a hunter without prey.
You cannot be unguarded, you cannot feel safe, around a sarcasshole.
Our goal should be healthy interdependent relationships. We want friends who are allies. Well, with all alliances, it is necessary to negotiate boundaries. "Here is what I am willing to do, and here is what I need from you." Personally, I draw the line at malicious sarcasm. It's not made more "perfect" if I didn't realize someone was "intending to wound" me. The intention to wound is still there. And that's the problem ...
If we want to enjoy smooth travels with those who share our journey, it is necessary to communicate, share feelings and negotiate agreements about behavior. Sarcasm interferes with all these goals. The more I examine it, the more I think we'd be better off without sarcasm altogether. -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Tue, October 4, 2005 - 9:12 PMWell put....sarcasm is to be used in moderation and savoured......lol
I have a tendency to contradict or correct things people say, and it comes of as condescending or sardonic. I have been working to rephrase these remarks...although i still question everything.
I might be the most optomistic cynic ever!!! -
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My rule of thumb, er, tongue
Wed, October 5, 2005 - 7:24 AMI have a rule of tongue that I am working to apply to every single thing I say. It is this:
Before I speak, let me ask myself first:
Is this True?
Is this Kind?
Is this Necessary?
If not, let it be left unsaid.
But if it is True and it is Necessary, let me find a way to say it Kindly.
"Let the words I speak today be sweet and tender ... lest tomorrow I have to eat them." -
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Unsu...
Re: My rule of thumb, er, tongue
Wed, October 5, 2005 - 7:58 AM<But if it is True and it is Necessary, let me find a way to say it Kindly.>
Wise words, indeed.
As a theatre artist I can admit that sarcasm is interesting on stage for about 30 seconds. It wears an audience down quickly and bores even the performers. Wit is more potent without it. -
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Re: My rule of thumb, er, tongue
Fri, October 7, 2005 - 10:48 PMjesus, i didn't realize i was in the tribe for morally sound and ethically concienscious people. interestingly enough, discussions about how sarcastic humor is hurtful are veritable humor vacuums.
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Re: My rule of thumb, er, tongue
Fri, October 7, 2005 - 10:49 PMthat would explain the wild popularity of seinfeld.
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Re: My rule of thumb, er, tongue
Wed, May 9, 2007 - 5:59 PMI love that quote. Who said it?
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Sat, October 8, 2005 - 3:08 PMI don't think anyone here implied that sarcasm should be used at all times and under all circumstances. Used properly, it can be valuable. If the listener and speaker see it as a tool to expose our bullshit and laugh at it together, then it serves a purpose.
But there are certainly times when the speaker uses sarcasm to wound another. I just don't think that all sarcasm is necessarily used in that way. -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Tue, October 18, 2005 - 4:46 PM
Because of human nature many people bond through banter OFFEN taking the form of sarcasm. When the jibe is ‘gotten’ & returned with acumen , or is acknowledged & gracefully parried the two (most usually between men) can become quite fast and tight friends. I have seen in numerous times. So is this queer creature Man.
I respect a person that can be the quintessential curmudgeon like Mark Twain was. I am honored to spend time with someone who can turn vice with a style.
Btw. A goal is not redundant within the adjective of Aspirational ( It merely connotes, personal enthusiastic loyalty and passionate conviction to the goal ) I have had many passionless goal to which little true commitment existed.
Victor -
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Re: sarcastic/sardonic
Tue, October 25, 2005 - 12:37 AMMy good friend Francesco sent this to me and I thought to share it with you.
Mark Twain (who never had the burden of meeting Howard Dean) said,
“Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as
if she has laid an asteroid.”
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